My dad has more money than yours.
Saturday 2007 May 26
In this well known children’s game, both player name an integer, and the winner is the one who names the largest integer, or better still the one who utterly humiliates his opponent by naming a vastly larger integer. Integers must be named in a constructive way, say by writing down an explicit Turing machine which halts after a large number of steps (so for example values of the Busy Beaver function are not allowed, as this function cannot be defined constructively).
The problem is to find a good strategy for this game, in other words to give a (constructive) definition of a very large integer.
Any easy way to write down a large integer is to write down a rapidly growing function, and take some value of this function.
If the only functions we use are addition of 1, (or addition of some fixed constant), we get numbers like 1+1+1+1+1+1 or MMMCCXXXVIII.
If we allow addition and multiplication as operations we get numbers such as 18362528394746. This covers essentially all numbers needed in physics (unless one wants to know how long it will take for a large black hole to decay by Hawking radiation, or something like that). A common mistake made at this level is to write a long sequence of nines: since ones are thinner it is better to write a long sequence of ones.
The next step is to allow exponentiation. This allows one to write down numbers such as Skewes number
This covers almost all numbers used in mathematics.
Exponentiation is repeated multiplication, so it does not take much imagination to define an operation of repeated exponentiation, and so on. Repeating this idea gives the class of primitive recursive functions. These are roughly the functions that can be defined by starting with the successor function and allowing functions to be defined by recursion over the integers. A typical example of a number produced with such functions is Graham’s number, which seems to be the largest number that has turned up “naturally” in mathematics (rather than by someone deliberately trying to produce a large number).
The next step is functions such as Ackermann’s function, one of the simplest functions that is not primitive recursive. Primitive functions allow one to define functions by recursion over the first countable ordinal ω, but Ackermann’s function allows one to use recursion over the ordinal ω×ω=ω2. To define bigger functions, one can use larger (countable, constructive) ordinals. Some obvious ways of constructing these are ordinal addition, multiplication, and exponentiation.
The smallest ordinal one cannot form in this way is called ε0, the limit of
which is the ordinal measuring the strength of Peano arithmetic, in the sense that it is the smallest ordinal that Peano arithmetic cannot prove to be well ordered (Gentzen’s theorem). A reasonably natural function at this level, related to Ramsey’s theorem, was found by Paris and Harrington as part of the proof of the Paris-Harrington theorem .
More generally, for any theory extending Peano arithmetic there is a countable ordinal measuring its strength, defined as the smallest (constructive) ordinal that the theory cannot prove is well ordered. There are also some associated rapidly increasing functions, which one can in fact define directly from the theory without mentioning ordinals: take all computable functions fn that the theory can prove are well defined, and “diagonalize” over them. (More precisely, define a new function f(n) = 1+maxi,j≤n fi(j); this new function is increasing and eventually larger than any of the functions fn.)
This produces a function that is well defined (at least if the theory is ω-consistent) but that grows so fast that the theory cannot prove it is well defined.
Incidentally, this gives a proof of one version of Godel’s incompleteness theorem: the theory cannot prove that the function f is well defined, as it is larger than all functions it can prove are well defined, but the ω-consistency of the theory easily implies f is well defined, so the theory cannot prove its own ω-consistency.
So to find large functions we need strong theories. Beyond Peano arithmetic there is second order arithmetic, followed by various set theories, such as Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory. We can go further using the hierarchy of known large cardinal axioms, the largest of which is the axiom for Reinhardt cardinals. (These are so large that they are not consistent with the axiom of choice, so one has to use ZF (Zermelo Fraenkel set theory without the axiom of choice) rather than ZFC.)
So to summarize, we get a really large integer as follows: take Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory with a Reinhardt cardinal. List all computable functions that it can prove are well defined, and diagonalize over them. The value of this function at some reasonably large integer (say a trillion) will be larger than any (constructive) number written down by anyone without training in logic and set theory. It is necessary to take the value at quite a large integer because the function starts off growing quite slowly, since most functions that the theory proves are well defined are quite small.
There is one problem: it is not clear that this function is well defined, and there is no known way of proving that it is. This is inevitable: any function that one can see is well defined must be quite small.
(Added later): if one allows numbers that are just defined, rather than constructively defined,
one can do much better; for example, the busy beaver function at reasonably large values will exceed all the numbers mentioned above. It is easy to define very large numbers from powerful theories with a minor variation of the ideas above as follows: for each theory one can define a function f(n) to be the largest number that the theory can specify and prove is well defined in less than n symbols. For example, one could take the largest number that Zermelo-Frenkel theory with a Reinhardt cardinal can define and prove is well defined in at most a googolplex symbols.
Saturday 2007 May 26 at 4:48 pm
You might like the search for the XKCD number. He wants a number that is not only mind-bogglingly large, but “elegantly” large.
Saturday 2007 May 26 at 10:02 pm
This is always a fun topic to give to casual mathematicians. Scott Aaronson has a similar article, aimed at a non-technical audience, describing the historical development of our ability to name really big numbers as a signifier of the development of mathematics as a whole.
Sunday 2007 May 27 at 4:37 am
Also, since you mentioned Reinhardt cardinals, and “has more money” (which obliquely suggests the U.S. Treasury) it may be worth mentioning Woodin cardinals.
[crossposted from 7 May 2007 Good Math Bad Math
http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2007/05/basics_sets_and_classes.php
Last week I went to a special memorial lecture at
Caltech by William Hugh Woodin, [on] recent surprising
results in axiomatization of transfinite numbers. He
had been a professor at Caltech, where my degree in
Math included advanced infinitary set theory. Since
computers did not help at all in that field, I shifted
to CS and Mathematical Biology and other things.
As Wikipedia reports: “William Hugh Woodin (b. 1955,
Tucson, Arizona) is a set theorist at University of
California, Berkeley. He has made many notable
contributions to the theory of inner models and
determinacy. His recent work on Ω-logic suggests
an argument that the continuum hypothesis is false.”
“He earned his Ph.D. from UC Berkeley in 1984 under
Robert M. Solovay. His dissertation title was
Discontinuous Homomorphisms of C(Omega) and Set
Theory.”
“He served as chair of the UC Berkeley mathematics
department for the 2002-2003 academic year.”
“He is the great-grandson of William Hartman Woodin,
former Secretary of the Treasury.”
I asked him about unproven hunches by the recently
deceased great Mathematician Paul Cohen, who proved
the independence of the Cintinuum Hypothesis, and
who’d gone to my high school (Stuyvesant, New York).
Hugh Woodin was pleased that I brought this up, and
explained that he’d had many conversations with Cohen
about this, including in this past year, Cohen’s last.
The new axioms used weird combinatorics and infinite
games, and seemed tantalizingly close to making large
ordinals and cardinals as unambiguous and the
integers.
Without this lecture, I’d have been able to make
little sense of Wikipedi’a short article on “Woodin
cardinals.”
“… Woodin cardinals are important in descriptive set
theory. Existence of infinitely many Woodin cardinals
implies projective determinacy, which in turn implies
that every projective set is measurable, has the Baire
property (differs from an open set by a meager set,
that is, a set which is a countable union of nowhere
dense sets), and the perfect set property (is either
countable or contains a perfect subset).”
“… The consistency of the existence of Woodin
cardinals can be proved using determinacy hypotheses.
Working in ZF+AD+DC one can prove that Θ0 is
Woodin in the class of hereditarily ordinal-definable
sets. Θ0 is the first ordinal onto which the
continuum cannot be surjected…”
ZF+AD+DC defined as follows (again, thanks 3 times to
Wikipedia):
ZF = Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory (without the Axiom of
Choice = AC)
AD = the axiom of determinacy in set theory. “It was
introduced by Polish mathematicians: Mycielski and
Steinhaus. It states the following”:
“Consider infinite two-person games with perfect
information. Then, every game of length ω where
both players choose integers is determined, i.e., one
of the two players has a winning strategy.”
“The axiom of determinacy is inconsistent with the
axiom of choice (AC); indeed, it has been shown that
it implies that all sets of reals are Lebesgue
measurable and have the property of Baire.”
“AD implies the consistency of ZF. Hence it is not
possible to prove in ZF that ZF is consistent with
AD.”
DC = the axiom of dependent choices, “a weak form of
the axiom of choice (AC) which is still sufficient to
develop most of real analysis. Unlike full AC, DC is
insufficient to prove (given ZF) that there is a
nonmeasurable set of reals, or that there is a set of
reals without the property of Baire or without the
perfect set property.”
“DC is (over the theory ZF) equivalent to the
statement that every (nonempty) pruned tree has a
branch. It is also equivalent[1] to the Baire category
theorem for complete metric spaces.”
For a while, I was fascinated again by transfinite
visions. But it’s too hard for me. I thanked him, and
returned to the finite cosmos.
Monday 2007 May 28 at 2:41 pm
ε0
which is the ordinal measuring the strength of Peano arithmetic, in the sense that it is the smallest ordinal that Peano arithmetic cannot prove to be well ordered (Gentzen’s theorem). A reasonably natural function at this level, related to Ramsey’s theorem, was found by Paris and Harrington as part of the proof of the Paris-Harrington theorem.
In fact, ε0 measures the strength of Peano arithmetic in a somewhat stronger sense : namely, in Peano arithmetic well-orderness of this ordinal implies
consistency. (The way it is done as follows: you can measure complexity of proofs in Peano arithmetic by ordinals less than ε0, and than “streamline” proofs by “a cut-elimination” procedure reducing the complexity and formalisable in PA. It is obvious that a “streamlined” proof cannot be a proof of a contradiction; you use well-orderness of ε0 to prove, uniformly, that every proof can be “streamlined”.) I would assume that this holds for some other theories as well.
In fact, one can define a very simple and explicit inductive process, which given a natural number, always converges to 0; but the number of iterations required bounds any function which PA proves to be totally defined. (A reference for this is a textbook of Takeuti on proof theory, _2nd_ edition.)
Saturday 2007 June 2 at 6:54 pm
Dear Richard,
welcome as an actor in this crazy exciting stage which is the blogosphere. I was only able to understand half of your post, but I found it intriguing, and I hope you will write also for the rest of us, with the insight you and only few others have.
Best regards,
T.
Saturday 2007 June 9 at 1:43 pm
Question:
When Peano Arithmetic is considered with the von Neumann construction, do we enter the arena of game theory mathematics?
Construction of the natural numbers in set theory
in Peano axioms
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peano_arithmetic
These equations may be treated as games:
x = y or x + (-y) = 0, a zero-sum game;
x > y or x + (-y) > 0, a non-zero-sum game.
Sunday 2007 August 19 at 11:10 am
Richard Borcherds writes:
Quite small compared to these obscenely large things we can’t prove well-defined, that is!
Is there any interesting way to formulate a quest for extremely rapidly-growing functions — and thus extremely large numbers — that we can still prove are well-defined, using constructive methods?
Saturday 2008 November 1 at 6:22 am
I thing that function has defined it clearly guys.. may be it just your different thinking method.
Saturday 2008 November 1 at 6:27 am
you all are the have the best thinking, and smart…. how you got it guys…In fact, one can define a very simple and explicit inductive process, which given a natural number, always converges to 0; but the number of iterations required bounds any function which PA proves to be totally defined I surprised with this sentence, what does it mean??
Monday 2009 February 2 at 9:16 pm
I try to understand this construction. I’m not an expert in logics, but here are some remarks. I guess it is just what you already meant, but I think it’s better to write it down anyway to make all clear for everybody:
“List all computable functions that it can prove are well defined, and diagonalize over them”
What means “computable function” ? Do you mean that it is about making a list of all algorithms written in a given (turing-machine idealized) computer language that produce a series of numbers until they eventually stop (run forever and no more give a next number), and then extract the sublist of all such algorithms that a given theory (like ZF with Reinhardt cardinal) proves will never stop issuing more numbers ?
OK, let’s do this way. Diagonalize over this and take the value of this function at a trillion.
If this is ordered by length of algorithms, then it would be a non-algorithmic definition, as it depends on provability questions that are not always decidable.
A problem with this definition of a very large natural number, is that the value of the number it defines depends on the universe in which you interpret it.
Indeed, let’s see what may happen if you interpret it in a universe with a non-standard set of integers. Then it may contain a proof of non-standard length that some algorithm before your trillionth, will always issue numbers; this claim may be true as well but not admit a proof of standard length, so that this creates no contradiction. Once accepted from this proof of non-standard length that the given algorithm defines a function, it is included in the diagonalization.
Then your trillionth value interpreted in the non-standard universe may be higher than the one satisfying the same definition interpreted in a standard universe.
But you probably meant instead you ordered the algorithms by length of proof, in which case the final result will be computably defined as well (but just unprovably inside the same theory).
Now, back to the initial question of what means “computable function”. If one tried to do any less constructive and thus more powerful computation than the one of an algorithm, then the diagonalization makes no sense, as having a proof that a function is well-defined does not give its value, which will depend on the universe in which this definition is interpreted.