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	<title>Comments on: Uselessness of set theory?</title>
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	<link>http://borcherds.wordpress.com/2007/12/25/uselessness-of-set-theory/</link>
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		<title>By: Successful Researcher: How to Become One</title>
		<link>http://borcherds.wordpress.com/2007/12/25/uselessness-of-set-theory/#comment-851</link>
		<dc:creator>Successful Researcher: How to Become One</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 20:55:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Great post and great discussion!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post and great discussion!</p>
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		<title>By: cab jones</title>
		<link>http://borcherds.wordpress.com/2007/12/25/uselessness-of-set-theory/#comment-823</link>
		<dc:creator>cab jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Apr 2009 09:18:30 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Uselessness of Numbers? I don&#039;t see your point Richard. You may as well say that mathematics uses very few large numbers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Uselessness of Numbers? I don&#8217;t see your point Richard. You may as well say that mathematics uses very few large numbers.</p>
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		<title>By: andre</title>
		<link>http://borcherds.wordpress.com/2007/12/25/uselessness-of-set-theory/#comment-778</link>
		<dc:creator>andre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jan 2009 20:51:32 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>i think we have a big problem here, since i used newton rhapson methode for calculate:

Y = a^(1/n)….,where “a” is arbitary number

including complex number, while “n” is every positive numbers.
i can’t use the first guest number by 0 (zero).
why does matlab can’t do this?
i think there is some mistake in matlab work. if it is truth that matlab can’t do this, so the conclusion is all the people in the world that used mathlab for numerical solution had make a big mistake…
is anyone can help me if iam wrong?????</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i think we have a big problem here, since i used newton rhapson methode for calculate:</p>
<p>Y = a^(1/n)….,where “a” is arbitary number</p>
<p>including complex number, while “n” is every positive numbers.<br />
i can’t use the first guest number by 0 (zero).<br />
why does matlab can’t do this?<br />
i think there is some mistake in matlab work. if it is truth that matlab can’t do this, so the conclusion is all the people in the world that used mathlab for numerical solution had make a big mistake…<br />
is anyone can help me if iam wrong?????</p>
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		<title>By: -= Linkage 2007.12.29 =-</title>
		<link>http://borcherds.wordpress.com/2007/12/25/uselessness-of-set-theory/#comment-775</link>
		<dc:creator>-= Linkage 2007.12.29 =-</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jan 2009 15:40:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://borcherds.wordpress.com/2007/12/25/uselessness-of-set-theory/#comment-775</guid>
		<description>[...] Set theory useless?&lt;br/&gt; In other words most of mathematics can be carried out in second order arithmetic: roughly speaking this means that one can use the integers and subsets of the integers but nothing more complicated. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Set theory useless?&lt;br/&gt; In other words most of mathematics can be carried out in second order arithmetic: roughly speaking this means that one can use the integers and subsets of the integers but nothing more complicated. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Chow</title>
		<link>http://borcherds.wordpress.com/2007/12/25/uselessness-of-set-theory/#comment-774</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Chow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Jan 2009 05:28:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://borcherds.wordpress.com/2007/12/25/uselessness-of-set-theory/#comment-774</guid>
		<description>I see that I&#039;m late to this discussion, but I only just came across it.

In my view, there is no great mystery as to why so little set theory is &quot;needed&quot; for mathematics.  The point is that mathematics historically did not start with the study of sets.  Set theory, especially set theory as a tool for foundational studies, is a johnny-come-lately that happens to give a very simple and elegant foundation that *suffices* for (essentially) all mathematics.  The goal was to find something that would be general enough to do the job, not to find the &quot;lowest bidder&quot; (i.e., the weakest set of axioms that would suffice).  Thus we formulate axioms like &quot;every set can be well-ordered&quot; rather than &quot;this set and that set and, oh, by the way, that other set too can be well-ordered&quot; since the latter is pointlessly cumbersome given our aims.  Naturally, the result is an extremely powerful axiomatic system.

Only if one has been mis-educated into thinking that mathematics is &quot;really&quot; based on set theory, as opposed to mathematics just being mathematics and just happening to have the property that it *can* be based on set theory, will one be surprised at how strong ZFC is.

On a different note, solrize wondered why Friedman says that math is essentially Pi^0_1 when obviously we have things like P != NP.  Friedman&#039;s point is that once we prove some Pi^0_2 or Sigma^0_2 statement, it is almost a conditioned reflex for us to ask immediately for a stronger version of the statement that gives explicit bounds.  This drops us down to the Pi^0_1 level.  So for example, if someone proves P != NP, we are not likely to be satisfied until we prove something stronger, like &quot;for all n, there is no circuit for SAT having fewer than (1.1)^n gates&quot; or something even stronger than that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see that I&#8217;m late to this discussion, but I only just came across it.</p>
<p>In my view, there is no great mystery as to why so little set theory is &#8220;needed&#8221; for mathematics.  The point is that mathematics historically did not start with the study of sets.  Set theory, especially set theory as a tool for foundational studies, is a johnny-come-lately that happens to give a very simple and elegant foundation that *suffices* for (essentially) all mathematics.  The goal was to find something that would be general enough to do the job, not to find the &#8220;lowest bidder&#8221; (i.e., the weakest set of axioms that would suffice).  Thus we formulate axioms like &#8220;every set can be well-ordered&#8221; rather than &#8220;this set and that set and, oh, by the way, that other set too can be well-ordered&#8221; since the latter is pointlessly cumbersome given our aims.  Naturally, the result is an extremely powerful axiomatic system.</p>
<p>Only if one has been mis-educated into thinking that mathematics is &#8220;really&#8221; based on set theory, as opposed to mathematics just being mathematics and just happening to have the property that it *can* be based on set theory, will one be surprised at how strong ZFC is.</p>
<p>On a different note, solrize wondered why Friedman says that math is essentially Pi^0_1 when obviously we have things like P != NP.  Friedman&#8217;s point is that once we prove some Pi^0_2 or Sigma^0_2 statement, it is almost a conditioned reflex for us to ask immediately for a stronger version of the statement that gives explicit bounds.  This drops us down to the Pi^0_1 level.  So for example, if someone proves P != NP, we are not likely to be satisfied until we prove something stronger, like &#8220;for all n, there is no circuit for SAT having fewer than (1.1)^n gates&#8221; or something even stronger than that.</p>
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		<title>By: Adib Ben Jebara</title>
		<link>http://borcherds.wordpress.com/2007/12/25/uselessness-of-set-theory/#comment-749</link>
		<dc:creator>Adib Ben Jebara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 03:42:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://borcherds.wordpress.com/2007/12/25/uselessness-of-set-theory/#comment-749</guid>
		<description>A mathematical why of the Big Bang 
Outline 

Let Ui be a set of locations of particles of the universe. 
U1xU2x ...... xUix ..... a set of infinite paths 
(Cartesian product). 
this set is equal to the void set by the 
negation of the axiom of choice. 

So there is no more space containing the particles. 
The particles collapse on themselves: Big Crunch. 
Then Big Bang. 

The Big Bang has taken place thus the negation of the axiom 
the choice is likely to considered as a good axiom. 
Adib Ben Jebara.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A mathematical why of the Big Bang<br />
Outline </p>
<p>Let Ui be a set of locations of particles of the universe.<br />
U1xU2x &#8230;&#8230; xUix &#8230;.. a set of infinite paths<br />
(Cartesian product).<br />
this set is equal to the void set by the<br />
negation of the axiom of choice. </p>
<p>So there is no more space containing the particles.<br />
The particles collapse on themselves: Big Crunch.<br />
Then Big Bang. </p>
<p>The Big Bang has taken place thus the negation of the axiom<br />
the choice is likely to considered as a good axiom.<br />
Adib Ben Jebara.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Bennet</title>
		<link>http://borcherds.wordpress.com/2007/12/25/uselessness-of-set-theory/#comment-743</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Bennet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 19:36:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://borcherds.wordpress.com/2007/12/25/uselessness-of-set-theory/#comment-743</guid>
		<description>I have come to this discussion rather late, but wonder, in a rather imprecise way, whether there is something to do here with the fact that mathematics is written down using finite sequences containing a finite number of symbols.

All sorts of exceptional objects can be shown to exist, and we can prove that varous universes of discourse are inherently incomplete - but as soon as a particular example is demonstrated, this is done within an inherently countable part of mathematics, and cannot therefore be &#039;too pathalogical&#039;. So our discussions of &#039;pathalogical objects&#039; cannot get out of hand. [My Greek teacher once said &quot;no language has a lot of irregular verbs&quot; - don&#039;t know enough languages to know whether this is true, but it has an analogue which I think is true of mathematics]

All this is worlds away from ultrafilters.

Another part of the answer to the original question is perhaps that once it is shown [or we believe - possibly wrongly] that our conceptualisations are compatible with set theory, then most of the time it seems easiest to use the concepts developed for a particular part of mathematics than to relate them all the time to sets. This is often convenient, but some of the subtlety and power of set theory may get lost or mislaid on the way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have come to this discussion rather late, but wonder, in a rather imprecise way, whether there is something to do here with the fact that mathematics is written down using finite sequences containing a finite number of symbols.</p>
<p>All sorts of exceptional objects can be shown to exist, and we can prove that varous universes of discourse are inherently incomplete &#8211; but as soon as a particular example is demonstrated, this is done within an inherently countable part of mathematics, and cannot therefore be &#8216;too pathalogical&#8217;. So our discussions of &#8216;pathalogical objects&#8217; cannot get out of hand. [My Greek teacher once said "no language has a lot of irregular verbs" - don't know enough languages to know whether this is true, but it has an analogue which I think is true of mathematics]</p>
<p>All this is worlds away from ultrafilters.</p>
<p>Another part of the answer to the original question is perhaps that once it is shown [or we believe - possibly wrongly] that our conceptualisations are compatible with set theory, then most of the time it seems easiest to use the concepts developed for a particular part of mathematics than to relate them all the time to sets. This is often convenient, but some of the subtlety and power of set theory may get lost or mislaid on the way.</p>
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		<title>By: Todd Trimble</title>
		<link>http://borcherds.wordpress.com/2007/12/25/uselessness-of-set-theory/#comment-739</link>
		<dc:creator>Todd Trimble</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 May 2008 01:15:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://borcherds.wordpress.com/2007/12/25/uselessness-of-set-theory/#comment-739</guid>
		<description>Marlowe:PI, I can easily believe that you don&#039;t absolutely &lt;i&gt;need&lt;/i&gt; ultrafilters (for the proof of the statement I mentioned above on December 27, 2007), but I also strongly suspect that your proof used rather more than the tube lemma (as you seem to intimate now). In particular, I would be a little surprised if you managed to avoid some form of the axiom of choice [or something slightly weaker like the Boolean Prime Ideal Theorem, to be technical]. If I&#039;m wrong about that, I&#039;d be interested! I can be reached at topological[dot]musings[circled a]gmail[dot]com if you wish to discuss this further. 

My original point was that (I suspect) some proofs are easier with ultrafilters than without them, and this may be a case in point. Despite their abstract nature, they can be technically useful, as Terence Tao was also suggesting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marlowe:PI, I can easily believe that you don&#8217;t absolutely <i>need</i> ultrafilters (for the proof of the statement I mentioned above on December 27, 2007), but I also strongly suspect that your proof used rather more than the tube lemma (as you seem to intimate now). In particular, I would be a little surprised if you managed to avoid some form of the axiom of choice [or something slightly weaker like the Boolean Prime Ideal Theorem, to be technical]. If I&#8217;m wrong about that, I&#8217;d be interested! I can be reached at topological[dot]musings[circled a]gmail[dot]com if you wish to discuss this further. </p>
<p>My original point was that (I suspect) some proofs are easier with ultrafilters than without them, and this may be a case in point. Despite their abstract nature, they can be technically useful, as Terence Tao was also suggesting.</p>
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		<title>By: Marlowe:PI</title>
		<link>http://borcherds.wordpress.com/2007/12/25/uselessness-of-set-theory/#comment-738</link>
		<dc:creator>Marlowe:PI</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 May 2008 00:58:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Sorry to have taken so long. It was definitely proved both ways... it was an iff. The proof was rather long, and we used a rather strange condition on nets over spaces and so on. It was actually left as an excercise, and I remember it was pretty damn hard, but we did it without ultrafilters...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry to have taken so long. It was definitely proved both ways&#8230; it was an iff. The proof was rather long, and we used a rather strange condition on nets over spaces and so on. It was actually left as an excercise, and I remember it was pretty damn hard, but we did it without ultrafilters&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Sylvia</title>
		<link>http://borcherds.wordpress.com/2007/12/25/uselessness-of-set-theory/#comment-731</link>
		<dc:creator>Sylvia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 04:13:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thanks to &quot;reverse mathematics&quot; and related work, it is well known that:
*Nearly all of mathematics employed in science and engineering requires nothing beyond the continuum;
*A great deal of mathematics can be done with second order arithmetic, sometimes augmented with some ingenious constructions;
*Nearly all of the vast power and generous ontology of set theory is of interest only to set theorists.

Conjecture: the &quot;general set theory&quot; of George Boolos, augmented with axioms of Infinity and Choice, should suffice as foundations for nearly all algebra and analysis.

It is also conceivable that some sort of second order arithmetic will be become the canonical foundation of mathematics within 30-40 years.

I have learned much from John Burgess&#039;s &quot;Fixing Frege.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks to &#8220;reverse mathematics&#8221; and related work, it is well known that:<br />
*Nearly all of mathematics employed in science and engineering requires nothing beyond the continuum;<br />
*A great deal of mathematics can be done with second order arithmetic, sometimes augmented with some ingenious constructions;<br />
*Nearly all of the vast power and generous ontology of set theory is of interest only to set theorists.</p>
<p>Conjecture: the &#8220;general set theory&#8221; of George Boolos, augmented with axioms of Infinity and Choice, should suffice as foundations for nearly all algebra and analysis.</p>
<p>It is also conceivable that some sort of second order arithmetic will be become the canonical foundation of mathematics within 30-40 years.</p>
<p>I have learned much from John Burgess&#8217;s &#8220;Fixing Frege.&#8221;</p>
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